Lions and tigers and bears! Managing pedator risk in sheep production with Crystal Emsoff from the Emsoff Livestock Production Company USA

Lions and tigers and bears oh my! All countries have challenges with predators preying on sheep and lambs and the USA has some of the biggest challenges. In this episode we learn strategies to protect our flock from a pro! 

Crystal, her husband and their boys run Emsoff Livestock Company in Chilcott California (near the Nevada border), focusing on show lambs, Dorpers, Hampshires and livestock guardian dogs (LGD). Crystal is a first generation sheep producer, she studied Animal Science at University in Texas, has worked for the US Forest Service managing cattle and 8,000 western range ewes in the Tahoe National Forest. She has served on the Western States Dorper Association for two years, she shows Dorpers and is training to be a sheep judge and best of all she can talk about sheep all day. 

In this episode we explore:

• That Crystal is like me and you! - she can talk about sheep all day!
• What predators are there in the US? What is the impact of these predators on sheep and their business? What do predators cost (in terms of loses or $$) US sheep producers each year?
• What they use to successfully manage these predators?
• What LGDs work best?
• How should you treat a LGD?
• What about any birds of prey as lamb predators like vultures? 
• What about alpacas?
• When are lambs most vulnerable to predators?
• Where should someone start if they are wanting to lamb for the first time or if they wanting to improve their lamb survival rate re predators?

You can reach Crystal at:
http://www.emsofflivestockcompany.com/
https://www.facebook.com/EmsoffLivestockCompany

Transcript

Jill Noble : 0:02

Hi, and welcome to the sheep show podcast dedicated to all things ovne. Thank you for joining me. I'm Jill Noble from Hallston Valley Farm and sheep stud. I'm your host this is your podcast To learn more, no more and achieve more when it comes to shepherding home with me as we explore the amazing world of sheep and sheep farming together. So today's episode of the sheep show podcast we've gone a little bit further afield for this particular one and we've gone to California no less. And I'm here today with Crystal Emsoff and crystal and her husband and her two boys run Emosff Livestock Company in Chilcoot n California This is near the Nevada border and Crystal focuses on show lambs, particularly breeding Dorpers, Hampsires and Livestock Gaurdian Dogs my topic today is actually going to be on predator management. So we're coming into lambing here in Australia and I know all across the world. This is a challenge to how to protect our our newborn lambs. So we're going to have a look at that today. Now Christina herself is a first generation sheep producer and now she's well qualified. She studied Animal Science at the University of Texas has worked for the US Forest Service managing Katelyn 8000. Western range use in the Tahoe National Forest she has served on the western state borders Association for two years shows dopers over in the US training to be a sheep judge. I can't wait to have arrived here in Australia to judge some of our sheep. Most of all, when I was chatting with Crystal to set up the podcast, we found out that she can talk about sheep all day. So bonus for us here on the sheep show podcast. Welcome Crystal, Thanks for joining us

Crystal Emsoff : 1:50

Hi. Thank you for having me.

Jill Noble : 1:52

So tell me about that. How can you talk about sheep all day? What What is it

Crystal Emsoff : 1:56

with you and sheep? Well, I have always loved animals my entire life. As a kid I was involved in four h i don't know if you have these programs in Australia or not four H and FFA, which is Future Farmers of America in high school. And that's where I found my passion for agriculture in general and sheep in particular, food security is huge. And livestock is how we get our food secure our food security, so I'm pretty passionate about about them and sheep is just where I found my passion. What is it about shape? Exactly? I've raised just about every animal that there is I've raised cattle, goats, pigs, horses, dogs, cats, I mean, just about everything that there is, I was drawn to sheep. I really love how hands on sheep are, you've got you know, they take a lot more management than cattle, some people that turns them away for me, I love that. I also have always really loved trying the challenge of trying to breed a better animal. So that's why you know, focusing on show sheep and registered sheep, there's just the challenge with that I also for our climate, and I'll go more into that later. Sheep really, they just fit Climate and our terrain really well. So they work well for where we are

Jill Noble : 3:03

and tell tell us about that. What sort of a climate Do you have where you are?

Crystal Emsoff : 3:06

Well we are located right where the Sierra Nevada mountain range which is more Alpine meets the Great Basin of the United States which is basically sagebrush steppe. We're about 5000 foot elevation, we get only about 11 inches of precipitation a year is average for where we are and about 75 or 70% of that falls is winter snow. So it's a pretty harsh environment. It's it's high so we get really cold winters but it's also dry. So we have a lot of our sheep are not running on lush green pastures it dry in the summer, there's a lot of sagebrush, mostly forbs and brush and the sheep and the dormers in particular are able to make far better use of that than say for example cattle

Jill Noble : 3:51

and how do you how she's going

Crystal Emsoff : 3:52

that climate? The hampshire's do okay, we do run on some leased pasture that's more kind of irrigated type pasture in the summer. Then we do also have to supplement the hampshire's as well. We feed a lot of brewers that brewers grain from the micro breweries. And so we do have to supplement the hampshire's more the dormers definitely are more easy care. They take care of themselves a bit better. One of the things I've talked about in some of the previous podcasts is matching your sheep choice to your environment and I think you've done a really good job of doing them right you know, we started with the Hampshire because we raised club lambs which in the United States a club lamb is a sheep that's bred specifically for four H or FFA kid to show as a market animal so we started with those there's a there's a pretty big market and our own kids show them so we started with those but as we as we grew realize these hampshire's really are just not adapted to our situation nearly as well as the door for so we still have our hampshire's they're kind of our pet project but as we grow we are growing with the door verse

Jill Noble : 4:53

how popular are Dorpers amd Hampshre shows in the US

Unknown Speaker : 4:57

The Hampshires and when I talk about a club Lamb they're they're quite popular there's not they're not registered sheep so nobody's really keeping track of how many numbers there are but they're they're pretty popular across the country the door purrs as a registered breed. I did just hear that they passed Katahdin is another hair breed was number one. I just heard the door first pass them and so I haven't read for certain but I've heard that door burrs and now the most common registered sheep in the country. That's amazing. And yeah, they're they're quite popular over

Jill Noble : 5:27

here. And actually the sheep that I run on my farm is Wilsthire Horn and the genetics from Wilsthire Horn are in the Kathhdin.

Crystal Emsoff : 5:35

Oh, okay. Right.

Jill Noble : 5:36

Yeah, so we run a shedding, shedding wool breed.

Crystal Emsoff : 5:40

They're certainly easier.

Jill Noble : 5:42

Yes, for sure. Yeah, definitely have have less of the shearing and all of those sorts of aspects as well. But I guess you know, sheep sheep are shaping particularly lambs are are vulnerable when you know for depending on the environment for a couple supposed to be in a couple of weeks. And I hear in Australia, we have lots of things that are trying to kill us and kill our lambs. But when I when I hear about the UAE, so I think it's even worse. So what what sort of predators do you actually have to deal with when you're breeding your lambs?

Crystal Emsoff : 6:16

Well, I don't I don't know if it's worse or not. It certainly is different. Our number one predator in the United States are definitely coyotes. And from what I've read about dingoes, I think there's some real similarities between coyotes here and dingoes there, but about 60% of the predator losses that occur in the United States are due to coyotes. That is the main predator that we deal with on our ranch or coyotes. We also have we have black bears and grizzly bears. One of the pastures that we use is in an old apple orchard, which attracts a lot of black bears during the fall especially they're drawn to the apples trying to fatten up for hibernation. So where there's black bears, there's mountain lions, Bob cats, and now we have wolves and the wolves are the real challenge. They've just moved in in the last couple years into California we now have wolves and they're they're the real challenge

Jill Noble : 7:04

to do bears attack lambs

Crystal Emsoff : 7:06

bears that absolutely will attack any sheep. We have we use our guardian dogs which we'll go into more so we don't lose lambs ourselves to the bears. But a lot of our cattle rancher friends regularly lose calves to the bears wow that's incredible Not to mention of

Jill Noble : 7:23

course for you know if we're checking lambs in the middle of the night can be pretty scary for you too.

Crystal Emsoff : 7:28

Yeah, the black bears are pretty elusive very rarely attack humans. Luckily here in California, we don't have Grizzlies. Yeah, they're much much progressive. Yeah, okay.

Jill Noble : 7:38

Yeah, they're, they're further up sort of

Crystal Emsoff : 7:40

Canada and that sort of thing. Uh, yeah, I'm further further east East in the Rockies. Yeah. When when do you lamb we land because we're breeding show lambs. We are breeding our lambs to coordinate with the show season and so there's a spring show season and then there's also a summer show season so we're kind of our landing is kind of drawn So we have we do a fall crop in September, October, which is fall for and then we also do a spring crop which is about January through March. And then I inevitably have a few stragglers, the doors we now have them on an eight month breeding cycle. The hampshire's we always just read once a year, the doorframes. Now we have an eight month breeding cycle. So we're breeding more lambing more frequently smaller groups more frequently than we did before.

Jill Noble : 8:26

Yeah. And that that allows you to meet that show market in particular.

Crystal Emsoff : 8:29

Yes, yeah. So the fall lambs, those will show in the spring shows and then the spring lambs will show on summer fall shows

Jill Noble : 8:38

what age with those lambs be when you're showing them

Crystal Emsoff : 8:40

depends a little bit on region. And like in Texas, they show a lot older, they'll show about 10 to 14 months old here where we are about seven to nine months old, ideal age for them,

Jill Noble : 8:52

and with those club lambs that so we're talking ewe lambs and RAM

Crystal Emsoff : 8:56

lambs, entire ram lambs weathers No no, no round. They're always there mostly weather shows they can show you lambs as

Jill Noble : 9:04

well. Yeah, that's amazing. So of course so it's weathers and it's particularly looking at that production market or livestock market or a meat market.

Crystal Emsoff : 9:12

They are market animals they're judged based on their you know, slaughter quality but because they're show animals they're also judged on their confirmation online to they need to be attractive as well because they are showing animals.

Jill Noble : 9:25

That's incredible. We have far as I know, we've nothing like that in Australia at all. No, no showing of weathers at all.

Crystal Emsoff : 9:31

They do have youth shows. I know I know. You get a breeding stock show. Yes, definitely. You. Yeah. So that those animals that are shown a lot of the shows are terminal. So they go to the show, and then at the end of the show, they have a junior livestock auction and they're sold for slaughter. at a premium price for the kids. They get a premium price it's a grab and then do you get feedback back

Jill Noble : 9:52

on the carcass after the animals has been slaughtered?

Crystal Emsoff : 9:56

Yeah, actually most of the shows they do have a have a carcass color. contest and actually our county fair because of this whole Coronavirus thing. It we got the results back a lot later but my son actually just won our carcass contest at our county fair with his lamb. So we were pretty excited about that.

Jill Noble : 10:12

Yeah, it's quite quite different quite different here in terms of the show show situation for sure. So what is the impact of the predators on on your business and on your lamb flock

Crystal Emsoff : 10:24

so for us personally, you know, we have always because we're raising show quality sheep are cheaper, pretty valuable we have individually us that are worth several thousand dollars. And so because of that, we have been tried to be very proactive in preventing predator losses in the first place. And for the most part, we've been pretty successful at that. So the impact to us as far as losses has been very minimal. Because we've been we've been able to avoid the vast majority of losses on a larger scale impacting the sheep industry across the nation. It's huge. The USDA United States about Department of Agriculture, they keep track, they send out a survey every year and they track how many losses occur each year. And it's almost 300,000 sheep a year or last two predators in the United States. I don't know if that sounds like a lot to Australia, we don't have nearly the sheep population that that you guys do. It's a significant number and close to $2 million worth of sheep every year that are lost to predators. So for us personally, we do have expenses that and management that we take to prevent those losses. But as far as actual losses, I can count on one hand, the number of sheep that we've lost in the about 15 years that we've been raising them here. So we've been successful at preventing those losses.

Jill Noble : 11:40

Wow. So what what is the secret? What are you using to do that,

Crystal Emsoff : 11:44

like I said, being proactive, you know, don't be reactive and trying to stop them once they occur. So we do night painting, we bring all of our sheep in and pin them at night in a fairly secure pen, but the biggest thing that does is it keeps them all in In one place, so it's easier for our dogs to protect them. So we do night pen. We also lamb in the barn. lambs you know baby lambs are the most susceptible to predation, of course. So we lamb in a barn, and we actually even raised the lambs in a barn, rather than just out on pasture. So that helps protect those lambs while they're small then and then the other thing is, is when we do have problem predators, if we legally can do so we will remove those predators that are causing problems that have become habituated to killing livestock. And fortunately for us, we haven't had to do that a lot. We did lose over the fall we lost three lambs in three days to coyotes. That was despite, you know, our night panning we had six dogs actually guarding the sheep at a time but just our terrain is is difficult out here where we are we have a lot of hills, a lot of brush. And if any of those sheep get separated from the main flock, they're susceptible. So when when we lost those three lambs, we did take lethal measures for those coyotes to remove those ones that have been become habituated to Killing the livestock.

Jill Noble : 13:01

And what

Crystal Emsoff : 13:02

are those lethal mesh measures that you use for us it's it's shooting them we'll call them in and shoot them some farms they'll use snares. We don't use snares because we have our dogs we don't want to say our dog and kill our dogs some farms are some states they can use leg hold traps California those are not legal so we cannot use leg hold traps. I know you had mentioned in questions bait as far as I know baiting is not legal in anywhere in the United States. So we are you know, because of pressure from animal rights type groups, we are more limited in what we can do for bears, coyotes, mountain lions, we can get a depredation permit if they're causing problems. The walls really are the big challenge. They're protected. There is nothing that we can do for the wolves even if they're killing our livestock. Wow, how do your livestock Guardian dogs stand up to the wolves so far they have not encountered them but the wolves have been within two miles of our of our ranch. So we're you know, preparing for that. We do put some spiked collars, wolf collars on our dogs. Our dogs are wearing those now in case you know the wolves show up. And then we also last year we finally found a bigger dog basically these wolves can weigh coyotes are about 40 pounds is roughly what they weigh. The wolves are 80 to 110 pounds. So they're much, much bigger and we use maremma sheepdogs, that's primarily what we've used we're very happy with them Ramos we really love them but they're smaller dogs are females average about 80 pounds. So after about two years of searching, we finally found he's across, he's half Moran, and the other half is Spanish Mastiff Polish doctrine, Central Asian shepherd. So he's a big dog. He's got he's maturing, he just turned a year, about two months ago, and he's going to be about 150 pounds. So he's a much bigger dog. So we are starting to add some bigger genetics to our dogs, to hopefully help them stand up to a wolf attack better

Jill Noble : 14:54

just explain what how do marinas work? How does the principle actually work? So

Crystal Emsoff : 15:01

any of the livestock Guardian dog breeds they, they have a genetic tendency to bond to livestock. So we our puppies are born in the barn with the sheep we raised them from we wean them about eight weeks old, and they're raised directly with the sheep from the moment they're born. So they form a very strong bond with the sheep and we do handle them every day. We'll, we'll pet them to you know, make sure that we can groom them. We do least train our dogs, we make sure that we can handle them, but they're raised with the sheep and they form a very, very strong bond with the sheep. So our sheep are grazing on our home ranch probably sounds small compared to some of your Australian stations is what you call them, right? Yeah. But they'll they'll graze within a couple miles you know, maybe a couple miles from our from our home. And then we also are grazing some leased pasture that's about 20 miles away. And because of I mentioned our terrain, it's hilly, we have you know, a lot of tall brush so we need our dogs To stay right close to the sheep dogs that are hundred yards even from the sheep are not going to be as effective in protecting them. So the Mermoz and that's one of the reasons we chose them around a breed is they tend to bond very strongly with the sheep and be a close guardian and really stick very close to the sheep. So we raised them right with the sheep from birth so that they bond really closely and they follow our sheep wherever those that flock of sheep is going they stay right with the sheep. So they've been very effective for us. And that's why in in selecting our new male, you know that we got to add some size. I was I was shying away from from going with another breed beside them or Emma because I've been so happy with how well they bond and was really happy to find Riggs is his name that he's half maremma. And he is staying true to those maremma roots. He's very, very well bonded with the sheep and stays very close to them at all times. Yeah, it's interesting to see how what you're doing from the birth of the maurella to help them help them natural instinct express itself. Yeah, it really does. You know, that bond, from what I've read the period 18 to eight to 16 weeks is pretty critical for these dogs to bond. And so we focus during that time. We never ever take that puppy away from the sheep, the only time it leaves the sheep is to go to the vet, if necessary. But other than that, they're always with their sheep, whether we're, if we're more leash training, release training, and with the sheep, they're not allowed to come to the house. We're never bringing them in the house. They're always with them sheep at all times. And it works. You know, the puppies, they don't wander, when they grow up, they just stay with their sheep.

Jill Noble : 17:36

And when you feed them, you you you feed them out when they get fed out with the sheep.

Crystal Emsoff : 17:41

Yeah, so when the puppies You know, when when we're raising a litter of puppies in the barn, we're feeding them twice a day. But when our dogs are out on pasture with the sheep, we set up a self feeder and it's basically a creek feeder as a gate that the dog can crawl through in a small pen with a self feeder that the sheep can't get into and when we're running on leashes You're only able to go check on them about twice a week. So we can't be there to feed them every day. And so this the self feeder has worked really well for us. And just normal dog food. I guess we feed them normal dog food. There's some people that you know, do the raw diet or whatever, we feed a high quality kibble or dog. So

Jill Noble : 18:15

what type of predator management Have you tried that for you just didn't work?

Crystal Emsoff : 18:21

Well, I can't say that. You know, one thing hasn't worked because like I say, we've been pretty successful. So I can't say for me that something didn't work. I really think that it's a combination of all of it that is successful together. I do believe if we did not have the dogs that the other other things we are doing would eventually fail you can only you can only shoot so many you know if you're using lethal control and you can't be there at all times. There has been some research that has shown the more coyotes you shoot, the more pups they have and it actually can increase the population size. So we we've have only had to shoot a very minimal number as far as lethal control the fences, you know that it keeps the sheep in one place at night the night penning. But if we didn't have the dogs guarding them, I think it would just condense the sheep and make it easier for the predators to get to them. So I can't say that one particular method hasn't worked because all of it together has

Jill Noble : 19:15

so by using the meramec has the coyote population sort of regulate themselves you're not removing them you're just protecting you.

Crystal Emsoff : 19:23

I don't know that it affects the population that affects the territory and and something special about dogs I know you had asked about you know using donkeys or llamas we did use a donkey with some success in the past using her on small pasture with basically mature use small open pasture with mature use when we came to when we bought this ranch, it's a lot larger there's a lot larger coyote population we knew we needed to step it up and at that point, we sold the donkey and got the dogs and the dogs are so useful against canine predators because they create what I call canine barrier through their urination mark. And through their barking they create a canine territory that other canines whether that be coyotes, dogs, stray dogs, wolves, they recognize that and they, they respect that and so they tend to stay out of our dog territory anyway, so I I don't know if our dogs have ever actually killed a coyote or not they may have you know that it's large acreage and I'm just not finding the carcass if they have but for the most part they're doing they're being very successful at just repelling those coyotes when the dogs are there. The coyotes don't come in the first place. Yeah, well,

Jill Noble : 20:31

how popular are Miranda's for other sheep producers in the US.

Crystal Emsoff : 20:36

I can't say exactly how popular they are. I believe in Australia. They're one of the most common livestock Guardian dog breeds, aren't they? Yeah, for sure. Yeah, so United States the Great Pyrenees is the most common simply because it's been in this country the longest. You know, for several decades people were using them as pet and show dogs and then they started taking them back to their roots and using them as guardian dogs. So the marimbas are not nearly as popular as the Great Pyrenees but they are I'd say probably one of the top five Guardian dog breeds in the United States.

Jill Noble : 21:09

How long do they live for?

Crystal Emsoff : 21:11

You know, I would say probably 10 to 12 years we have not lost one yet. We've been using them about 10 years we are our old male he's actually Great Pyrenees Anatolian Shepherd we still have him he was our first dog then we have one maremma that's eight and another seven no nine and eight I think now and they're going strong so hopefully they

Jill Noble : 21:30

last while I'm so you you run what one maremma to what size mob of shape though

Crystal Emsoff : 21:36

we always recommend and and for our situation, at least two dogs for for group a sheet. And the reason for that is what I tell people is these dogs are amazing, but they're not super dog. They can't be in one place at all times and they have to sleep at some point. And I don't know how dingoes are coyotes are smart they work together and they will lower the dog off and then another one will go into the flock and attack you So we run at least a bare minimum of two dogs we found on our home ranch. It requires at least three dogs when we only had to the coyotes were coming in. I've watched them in the middle of the day coming in trying to lure off the dog and go after the sheep. Once we added a third dog that seemed to be enough dogs to keep the coyotes from pressuring in the first place. We currently have six total and the reason for that we do breed so at certain times, we have dogs that are raising a litter of puppies, and then we're also running on lease pasture. So sometimes we have sheep in multiple locations. So we currently have six dogs that we're using at this time.

Jill Noble : 22:36

If if someone was going to buy your purchase of Miranda or any other livestock Guardian dog, what what would they look for? What sort of advice would you have for them?

Crystal Emsoff : 22:45

Well, the first thing I would suggest is get a good book or two and do your research. These dogs they're really amazing. But they do take some effort. They take some effort, especially during that first year while you're while you're raising them. I don't even call it training because what they Do is is 99% instinct but they're they do make mistakes and you have to be available and willing to correct those mistakes and work through those mistakes. So find a good book to study and read it and really know what you're getting into before you get these dogs and also to study and find what breed is gonna work best for your situation. And then after that once you do that, and you have decided that yes a guardian dog is is what I need, it's the right going to be the right tool for me find a good breeder that is using their dogs in a similar way that you'll be using them. I don't know if this is a case in Australia in the United States, these Guardian dogs have become a pretty trendy thing. And there's a lot of unfortunately pretty poor dogs being bred with pretty poor instinct. So find find a good breeder check references, and that's the number one thing that's even more important than what breed you ultimately choose is find a breeder that's breeding quality dogs who are working for them and also working for for their customers for other puppy buyers. And once you do that, like I say, study, study those books and we raise our sheep, like I've said in the barn at all times really focus on that bond that dog sheep bond. And if you get that, right, you're going to have so many fewer problems later the biggest problems that people have dogs roaming, wandering, you know, if they're not bonding, if they're not strongly bonded to their stock, they can be roaming miles and miles from your home, which is they're getting in trouble and they're not protecting your sheep. So really focus on that dog stock bond to keep them close and then just be aware, watch it, watch your sheep watch your dog and any problems you know, typically the problems are going to be roughhousing dogs, young dogs chewing on ears of your lambs. That's kind of the biggest thing biting legs, watch them close. And if you see the sheep acting nervous around the dogs, you catch the dog in the act, watch them and just correct those behaviors really quick before they become a bad habit. You do that? odds are you're going to have a pretty good dog.

Jill Noble : 24:55

Have you seen that? Has that happened to you where you've seen that poor behavior from from your dog?

Crystal Emsoff : 25:00

We had our very first dog I actually noticed a couple sheep were coming in at night like I say we night and coming in limping on a front leg and you know they're out stuff happens I didn't make a connection right away until one day I saw him holding a leg of a sheet just he wasn't pulling on it just holding his leg in his mouth. He was probably about nine months old when this happened. So I caught him doing it a couple times and yelled at him and told him to knock it off and he quit. That's really been about the extent of the problems I've had with my dog. I am on some Facebook Guardian dog groups and a lot of people have a lot of problems with their dogs I would say I've been fortunate but I really think it's due to number one starting with good dogs good genetic dogs from the start finding finding good breeders to get our dogs from so they have the solid genetics and then second is is raising them properly catching any poor behavior immediately before it becomes a habit. And also our dogs are getting a lot exercise. You know if you're trying to raise a dog on half an acre With your sheep, they're going to get bored. They're going to get, you know, they're going to have pent up energy, you're probably going to have more problems then if your dogs are out on pasture and actually allowed to work, so yeah, so it's that it's that balance of the of the to the genetics and then how you treat them along the way. Absolutely. I think it takes both. When would

Jill Noble : 26:19

you put a livestock Guardian dog to work? What age would they be before you'd actually let them out?

Crystal Emsoff : 26:25

So what we do the way that we raise our puppies, they're, they're born in the sheep barn. We actually have a litter of four week old puppies in our barn right now and they're already crawling around, you know, walking around, they're mingling with lambing us right now. We raised them in the barn until they're about four months old. Until that point, they're just too small to protect themselves, you know, coyotes, they'll they'll kill dogs too. So until they're about four months old, we keep them in the barn with the sheep so they're still bonding. With keeper you lambs are bummer lambs. If you have them. Just some general sheep is ideal for raising those puppies until they're about four months old at four months. Old we start letting them go out on pasture and there we have older dogs too. So they're able to help protect the sheep or the puppies. So a four months old, we start letting them out on pasture during the day. We continue to bring them in at night. by six months. At that point we feel like they're big enough, especially with the older dogs did number one keep up with the flock and number two, to protect themselves from coyotes. And so as six months we start leaving them out full time with the flock.

Jill Noble : 27:28

And how did the sheep behave around America?

Crystal Emsoff : 27:31

Well, if if you're if your sheep were used to dogs already, they pretty much just accepted as another part of their flock pretty interesting. They they learn pretty quickly that those dogs are there to protect them. We have some of the some of the sheep they'll go up to the dogs and they like the dogs to lick around their nose and eyes and ears. They actually seek out affection from the dogs. If your sheep are not used to dogs or if they have been harassed or chased or attacked by any kind of stray dogs or coyotes. They're going to be really Afraid of the dogs at first. And so that takes a bit more effort to get the sheep to accept the dog or Hampshire, us in particular, they're pretty, pretty maternal protective mom. So when they have their babies, they don't like the dogs getting too close and they'll they'll run the dogs off if they get too close. I actually like that, especially for a young dog because they're disciplining the dogs themselves. Yeah, teaching the dog some respect themselves. Yeah, that's,

Jill Noble : 28:26

that's great. And I've seen that myself with sheep reacting differently to different dogs and things like that. What about our podcast? Is that something that you've ever used or anyone in the US has, you know, people in the US use it use iPod?

Crystal Emsoff : 28:40

I hear some people say that they use them in my mind and I'll pakka doesn't weigh much more than a sheep. And in the US, there's people using the Guardian dogs to guard their alpacas. So yeah, for me, kind of is the answer for me. Yeah,

Jill Noble : 28:55

yeah, we use that's what we use here. We use what we use shooting bathing in and removing habitat and we have our Packers as well around lambing time. And are the alpacas able to protect against the Yeah, we don't we primarily have foxes so they're smaller. They're much smaller. We don't have any wild dogs here but I know a lot of sheep farmers wouldn't really have issues with wild dogs yeah the

Crystal Emsoff : 29:19

wild hogs or or even just stray dogs you know even somebody's pet down the road coyotes killed them the most sheep domestic dogs are the second most dangerous predator to sheep in the United States and that probably would be the similar case here with foxes and then yeah, that those some domestic dogs quite quite dangerous. We have boxes here as well. I've never heard of anybody complaining about losing lamps to the boxes. Oh, chickens are different. Yes.

Jill Noble : 29:45

Yes. seen a lot of people use marinas for chickens as well.

Crystal Emsoff : 29:49

Yeah, they do. And and we have chickens, you know, running around and they're just kind of protected by default simply for being in the dog's territory. The dogs don't care much. Yeah, they love their sheep.

Jill Noble : 30:01

Isn't that nice? And what about birds of prey if they have a problem for you at all? Where You Are

Crystal Emsoff : 30:06

they I would say they're a minor problem for me I've lost I lost one lamb to ravens and the bird Ponce's to or you know predator losses to birds. I know in the United States Golden Eagles kill some lambs black vultures ravens probably actually killed the most they'll pick the eyes out of the newborn lambs were the ANS and kill them that way and the guard dogs and aromas are really good at even they they do not like big birds around and they'll run off even the birds of prey were lambing in the barn. So birds are not a major issue because they are in the barn. Yeah, yeah, for sure. But the raven go in the barn, the one we lost was in a barn

Jill Noble : 30:47

and how many us I know your your your flat staggered lambing. But how many years are you lambing every year?

Crystal Emsoff : 30:53

Oh, we have 100 us and we did just increase the size of our ranch. So we're working up to about 200 views over the next year. Guess what that staggered lambing? It's easier to do it in a in an indoor or in a barn situation. Yes, it is. And that is part of the reason to that we stagger is simply to fit them all in our limited facilities. Yeah.

Jill Noble : 31:13

So if someone was starting to lamby lambing for the first time or really wanting to improve their lamb survival, right from predators, what what advice would you have for them? Well,

Crystal Emsoff : 31:24

like I say, I would really say be proactive. As a livestock Guardian dog breeder, I cannot tell you how many people call me in a frenzy, saying I need a dog that can guard right now. And some of these people they've gone years with no problems and suddenly, a mountain lion comes and kill the half a dozen sheep at night and one night or coyotes have taken 20 other lambs over the last month and they're desperate and they need something. Now, unfortunately, it's hard to find a good older train dog and a puppy it can take them up to a year before they're able to actually guard themselves. So my advice really, if you're You know, considering a livestock Guardian dog, don't wait until you need it to get it, get it now and so it's ready before you need it. And hopefully, you know, people ask, well, is my dog being effective? I don't know. Well, if you're not losing sheep to predators, I'd say your dog is being effective. And then the other thing you know, in the meantime, while you're waiting for that dog that puppy to mature enough to guard, do whatever it takes, you know, for us that's lambing in a barn if you need to night pen. I know a lot of producers use electric fence that electric netting you know, you have to you have to be adaptable. You have to be willing to try new things. And be proactive. Don't wait until you have a problem because once those predators realize there's an easy meal, they're going to come back. So don't make don't make your cheap and easy meal for them in the first place.

Jill Noble : 32:49

Let's see. good, really good. Um, Now obviously, Christopher, for someone like you to have the knowledge that you have and the passion that you have you've been influenced by others in your life. So who has influenced you most on on your sheep journey?

Crystal Emsoff : 33:04

Well, I would have to say the first would be my parents. You know, you said in the introduction that I'm a first generation Shi producer, that is the case I grew up in a in a rural subdivision in a small town when I was 10. We moved there and I joined four H and my parents do not come from an agriculture animal background at all. We had a dog and a cat. When I found my passion, they supported me we were on a half an acre of land and I had sheep and I had a horse and they supported me fully in following my passion. So that would be number one. Number two was my high school ag teacher, agriculture teacher and FFA advisor. I found my passion and animals you know, through my parents support but it was my passion for agriculture that he really helped to foster through FFA and my ag classes. And then number three would be a gentleman named Gail Christian who I met him online on a sheet forum back in the early 2000s and About the last 20 years he's been through online and I finally got to meet him in person about five years ago but a mentor to me, guiding me and encouraging me and just offering any help that I needed in this the sheep journey that we've been on.

Jill Noble : 34:14

And this is is Gail,

Crystal Emsoff : 34:16

a sheep producer. He is a retired shoe producer. He is from Texas and had at one point several thousand years he was actually an ag teacher himself in Texas, and as he's been retired from the business a while but a wealth of knowledge. Excellent. What would you say how healthy is the sheep industry in the United States? Well, right now it's struggling. This Corona virus I don't know if it is affected in Australia in the same way. The packing plant that gets shut down packing plants to there now is a large backlog of livestock of all species of livestock. So all livestock producers are really struggling right now prior to this sheep is definitely a minor livestock species in the United States next to beef, pork and chicken sheep is minor. So it definitely Yeah, I guess we are in importing more meat than what we're able to produce in this country. So there's room for growth, we import a lot of us Australian lamb.

Jill Noble : 35:19

And thank you very much for doing that.

Crystal Emsoff : 35:22

Glad to help but I wish we were making more.

Jill Noble : 35:25

Well, I mean, that's that's the thing I yeah, we you know, we'd all like to to be able to meet the demands, the local demands, but you know, sometimes we do need to look further afield. It's good that Americans are eating lamb, though. I mean, it's not a not a usual dish for them.

Crystal Emsoff : 35:39

It's not I think they have average annual consumption is about a pound a person so it's pretty low. But you know, people are getting more more adventurous in their eating, especially this younger generation and the ethnic population for sure is the biggest consumer. Yeah, how much land on nearly every night We eat a lot of lamb we put several lambs in our freezer every year. that's by far the most that we consume is lamb.

Jill Noble : 36:08

And what's your favorite lamb dish to to eat and cook crystal?

Crystal Emsoff : 36:13

You know, I'm simple. I like a good lamb chop marinated and teriyaki sauce and cooked on the grill. Oh, nice.

Jill Noble : 36:20

Very Texan.

Crystal Emsoff : 36:21

Yeah, I guess so. No, actually, Texans don't eat lamb. Oh, really? They be they're they're big into beef and steak. It's the number one sheep producing state in the country, but they don't eat it. Don't figure Oh, there's a marketing opportunity for us. I think I know Kim, right. from Texas, almost been ostracized from his family raising sheep. cows.

Jill Noble : 36:45

There you go. So if listeners in Australia or even in the US if they wanted to get in touch with you, how could they get in touch with you and perhaps find out more or perhaps even inquire about your products and your services? Well, like I

Crystal Emsoff : 36:59

say, I love Talking sheep. I could talk sheep all day. So anybody wants to get ahold of me. We have our Facebook pages and soft livestock company on Facebook. And then we also have a website m soft livestock company.com. And there's information about our sheep and our dogs on both of those. That's great.

Jill Noble : 37:16

Thank you so much crystal. It's been a treasure trove of information and be lovely to talk to you and good luck in Windsor. next row. When's the next show coming up for your voice? You know,

Crystal Emsoff : 37:27

it's all been up in the air with all been canceled. And so we're hoping really crossing our fingers and hoping that we have one in July. Yeah, yeah, we've had the same here where we've got a few breeds and hamsters, actually one of them doing virtual shows now, which is very exciting. Our kids have participated in a couple of those, you know, we normally would have been to about 10 shows by now and they've all been canceled. We're really hoping to get back into it.

Jill Noble : 37:54

Well, hopefully, hopefully sooner, the sooner the better. Absolutely. Thank you so much.

Crystal Emsoff : 37:58

Well, thank you. Thank you. Man,

Jill Noble : 38:00

you've been listening to the sheep show podcast with Jill Noble from holston Valley farm. Is there a topic you'd like us to cover and explore? Is there a interview you would like us to hold or an expert you'd like us to talk to please send us an email and we'll see what we can do to help you keep your learning going. You can email me at Jill at holston Valley farm.com.au. Thank you so much for listening and until next time, sheep well Transcribed by https://otter.ai